3rd Generation Pontiac, Please help new guy learning

[dkyork]

Hi everyone,

My name is Dale and I have recently been passed down grandpa's 1960 Pontiac Catalina 4 door sedan. It's been sitting for about 12 years at mom's house, but my dad did rebuild it at the time.

I have the chassis shop manual in paper form and recently joined to look at the soft copies on this website. It's not very detailed for a new guy like me, so was hoping to get some help here.

It's not running very well and quits after about 10 minutes, so I was hoping to get some help from you Pros on this project. I really want to do the work myself and not pay someone to do it.

I've replaced the sparks plugs (gapped at .035), put in new injectors (Holley Pro-jection 2d TBI kit), and a new battery thus far. It will idle pretty good, but it dies when I push the throttle past 20% or so. Exhaust is pretty darn clear.

I'm looking at doing a coolant flush today and an oil change. I have a question about the coolant system. The shop manual says there are engine block plugs I should remove when draining the system and flushing it out with water. Does anyone have a schematic or know where they are? I don't see any picture in the chassis shop manual and I want to make sure I do this right.

Also, I noticed the oil pan on this has the bolt on the front of it. UGH, I'm not sure how to drain this on an even surface to get it all. Any recommendations? I was thinking about using a manual lift, undoing the bolt, and then letting the car back down. Once it's done draining, then jack it back up and get the bolt on. I also bought some cheaper 10w-30 to run through the system and then want to drain it again and put in some new stuff. Sort of like an engine flush, but with real oil.

Please let me know if there is anything else I should be doing? Seems like the engine overheats after running 10 minutes and I can't start it for a few hours. I'm going to get a new thermostat too for the coolant after testing it in boiling water?

BTW, the 2 Barrel Holley Pro-jection2D ecu kit only goes up to 275HP. Is there any way to tell what HP engine I have? I'm pretty sure it has a 4 barrel manifold on top, but an adapter was used to put the Holley Tbi on. I just want to make sure that TBI is the right size and I don't need to go bigger.

I hope you guys can help me!

thanks,

Dale

[Larry]

Congratulations on a cool old Pontiac!

First, you are on the right track with what you are doing so far. Although you had me confused about "injectors"....? Later it looks like you are referring to something in the carb rebuild kit.

That too gets confusing when you mention a Holley 2-bbl with an adapter plate on a 4-barrel manifold. If you don't know what you have there, remove it, look at the manifold-- if you have 4 holes, it needs a 4-barrel.

Taking one question at a time, let's start with the dying after about 20% throttle and quitting after 10 minutes. Check your fuel pump to see if you are getting the volume and pressure you should. They are cheap enough and available enough to just replace without fooling around. Make sure you get a new one that has rubber that will tolerate the new gas. Check wit places like NAPA, but even some of the "box-stores" can get older units.

I understand the over heating issue, but doubt that is the reason it won't restart. Probably more of a vapor lock situation- again related to the fuel pump. It would have to REALLY over heat (coolant-wise) to keep it from restarting.

Oil plug location....? Makes you wonder who an engineer can be so stupid, but they often are. Follow the routine you outlined and you will be fine.... inconvenienced, but fine. Go ahead and add a can of Rislone engine oil cleaner to it too.

For the freeze plugs, just scout around the block and front and back of the heads looking for big round recessed plugs about 1-1/2" in diameter. It would be great if you pulled them to do a thorough engine flush-- but it would be an even bigger pain in the butt. They can be a bear to get out, and even harder to put new ones in.

For the place you are now, just do as good of flushing as you can with a good engine cleaner. Rarely is a block so plugged up as to be a huge issue. Remember the water pump may not be 100% and certainly the radiator may be corroded a lot.

Try a good flushing, and don't even bother putting a thermostat in for now.

Be sure to replace all rubber items- fuel hoses, water, radiator. They are not your friends after this long of time sitting.

Keep us posted as you move along here.

[dkyork]

I never thought about not putting in a coolant thermostat. I've already stuck it in there with a new gasket and some ultra black rtv. oh well. I did test it and it was good though.

In any case, I drained the radiator today and removed some hosing to the overflow container. The rubber hoses snapped like plastic and broke the damn metal nipple off the top of the radiator. I JB welded it back on and hope it's hardened by morning. I really didn't want to buy a new radiator and JB Weld says it can handle up to 600 degrees.

Hopefully I can get this thing back together, so I can change the oil and then rerun new fuel lines with filters and a pump.

I do have a generator question. I was measuring voltage when the car was running the other day. Someone told me I should be reading 12.7+ at the battery, but I was only reading 12.2. I measured the A wire from the generator at the regulator and was getting about 2.7v from it. Is that about right?

thanks!

Dale

[Larry]

I wouldn't worry too much about the broken overflow nipple right now. However, even if the JB Weld works, you'll have to be very careful not to rebreak it. If you are referring to the small piece sticking through at the filler, you might be able to remove the old nipple and stick a new piece of tubing through while also putting liberal amounts of epoxy or JB on it to hold in place.

Your new thermostat will be fine; they just aren't really needed except for creating heat for the winter time. Any story about needing the "back pressure" created by the thermostat is an urban myth. Be sure to watch for air locks when refilled and run again. One simple check that you are getting good circulation is turning on the heater and making sure you are getting good through-flow. Or just watch in the radiator opening and when the thermostat opens, you should see the water start flowing into the tank at the top.

Something sounds weird with the generator measures. Are you sure your voltage isn't just coming from the battery juice and not the generator output. Try disconnecting the positive from the battery after starting and read the actual voltage coming out of the cable (positive lead of tester on the cable end/negative to a ground.

The low voltage from the generator to the regulator sounds odd. I would think it should be max output of the generator at the 12.7 you mention. Have you checked the manual?

[dkyork]

Hey Larry,

I thought I should leave an update here. I've changed the oil twice, the first time being more of a flush. I've also flushed and changed the coolant twice. I bought new plugs and gapped them at .35. I ran a new fuel line and put new filters in. I was getting good fuel pressure, so I left the fuel pump in. New injectors are firing very well.

Here are my current issues. Car still seems to be dying when driving around my neighborhood. I had the pleasure of pushing it back home twice now. UGH, she's heavy...

I'm getting a new solenoid, as the cranking motor doesn't turn and I have to tap the solenoid with a hammer. I decided not to buy a whole starter, as it does crank very well when I tap the solenoid.

I ordered a new regulator. I grounded the F pole on the generator and measured the voltage on the generator. I was easily getting up to 20v when revving higher RPMs and the generator meter inside the dash needle moves up to charging. I believe the signaling from the regulator is not working and allowing the generator to output more voltage. Is the generator meter inside the dash the "ammeter"? I see an ammeter on the diagram, but not under the hood.

I've decided to hold off driving it off my garage for now, at least until I get the starter and charging fixed.

Engine runs decent when revving in park, but I need to adjust the ECU more. It doesn't run as well when I actually drive it.

There seems to be a leak underneath, but I can't isolate it. I can't tell if it's oil or transmission fluid. I've started reading up on the hydramatic transmission to see how to check the fluid level. The shop manual says to reference the hydramatic manual.

Does anyone have a copy of the hydramatic manual or now where I can check the fluid level to see if it's leaking?

By the way, I know I need to refit the oil pan at some point, but man is it a pain. It's like a 20 step process in the book to take off the oil pan! YIKES!

take care all

Dale

[Larry]

Good call on ordering a new regulator. Be sure to polarize it when you install it.

New solenoid is a good idea too, but you know the old GM trick is to just take it apart, sand the brass contact disk and flip the contact screw button 190 degrees... good as new!

The dash gauges are usually ammeters.

Checking Hydramatic fluid level...? There is a regular transmission dip stick at the back, passenger side of the engine. Shows it right in the 1960 Owners Manual. Is yours missing?

The engine dying and seemingly running well at high rpm but not under load, sounds like a fuel problem, still.

[dkyork]

Interesting Larry, I'll check again tomorrow. I don't recall any dipstick visible except the oil one. Do you know where I refill the fluid at for the hydra-matic?

I'll let you know. Looks like I still need to turn up the juice on the Holley Pro-jection 2d ECU it came with.

take care and thanks!


Dale

[Guest]

Ok, another update. I replaced the solenoid and she cranks solid now. Man, was that hard!!!!!!!!! I'm not even sure how I was able to do it. The nut locations were tough. I also changed out the regulator and she's charging now.

Although, the battery does drain slowly at idle. About .01v per second. I have to rev the engine to get the battery charged back up, which does so fast.

Is this a normal generator characteristic? I don't like how my battery drains on idle. I'm getting about 14v out of the genny at the regulator. It's a 30Amp Delco Remy and I would think it would at least maintain the battery at idle.

I still haven't identified the leak. It's behind the oil pan somewhere. Where it connects to the Transmission.

I did another fuel pressure check. I unplugged the fuel line form the TBI and hooked my gauge. I'm losing pressure. I started clamping the line back towards the fuel pump to find the leak and could not find one. The lines are solid all the way to the fuel pump. The fuel pump is losing pressure!! Does this mean the fuel pump is bad? I would think fuel pumps should be one way and not allow fuel to go backwards.

Thanks Larry for any help! She's getting there!

DK

[Larry]

The reason they went to alternators is exactly what you are learning with your generator at an idle. Alternators maintain a full (or fuller) charge at low rpms, generators charge according to the rpms.

Yes, fuel pumps can leak. The diaphragm is probably bad. A new pump, especially one rebuilt to accept the new caustic fuel will solve that problem.

A leak between the oil pan and transmission, if it is oil, is most likely a rear main bearing seal. That's why, back in "the old days" we used to keep cardboard to slide under our cars. And heaven forbid you went to visit someone with a new driveway!

Good progress so far. Keep up the good work, and keep us posted.

[dkyork]

Hey Larry,

Do you think I should take the car to the shop and get that fixed? I can't stand the idea of a leak. Seems like a bit much for me to drop the transmission and oil pan. There's a ton of stuff in the way.

thanks!

Dale

[Larry]

Is it oil or transmission fluid leaking?

If oil, the rear main seal is not a horrible job to do. It's dirty and a little work, but a good learning experience.

We have the entire 1960 Pontiac Shop Manual on-line in our Reference Library. Look up rear main seal replacement.

Let us know if it is transmission fluid. We have a great automatic transmission Tech Advisor who can help you with information.

[dkyork]

Hey Larry,

Looks like oil leaking.

Man,

I'm beyond frustrated. The new injectors are spitting fuel great. I had to replace the fuel pump as well because it was losing pressure back toward the tank. The new fuel pump is quiet and I'm getting a pretty steady 15psi while idling(or trying to idle). If I turn the key to build up pressure while the engine is off, it does go down a little. Seems the regulator might be a little quirky. I adjusted it to about 16 PSI.

When I have all lthe ECU dials set to neutral position (all horizontal), I can't get this thing to idle. I've played with the mechanical idle screw and can't get it to idle above 550 RPMs. When I try and apply a little gas, I hear a loud air sound coming form the TBA and it starts to die out. I let go and it goes back to idling around 550. I adjust the TPS sensor to .64v, which it was already pretty close.

I just don't know what to do at this point..... Fuel line new, fuel pump new, new regulator, new solenoid, new vacuum caps. Just the sounds of wooshing air from the TB at times. I have 2 vacuum caps on. There is a front middle hose on the Throttle body going to the brakes and then there is a front left line hose that wraps around the left side of the engine and down some where. Am I still getting air in the TB somewhere?

One thing to note is that if I turn the Main fuel map dial up on the ECU 90 degrees, I can get the RPMs up easily and push the pedal to about 2500 RPM before I hear that air wooshing sound from the TB and it tries to die out. I take it that adjust the main fuel map to put more fuel.

Any suggestions?

thanks,

Dale

[Larry]

I'm getting kinda corn-fused.

What exactly are you using for a carburetor? You are using terms I just don't associate with an old 1960 car.

Are you using the good old basic 2-bbl carb? it doesn't sound like you are, and I am suspecting you gave a big problem in your fuel delivery system. I am just assuming you have a 2-bbl. but even a 4-bbl should be simple.

Give me a phone to call you on if you like. You can send it by e-mail (see "contact" above or use the PM below.