Why Not a Firebird?

[Larry]

The following is a press release where GM announced the coming new Camaro. Naturally all Pontiac lovers will shout "Why Not a Firebird?". In all fairness to GM/PMD there must be a tremendous temptation to "badge engineer" a Firebird out of the Camaro. However, would Pontiac lovers buy a Chevy with Pontiac plastic panels front and rear? That being said, how many Pontiac lovers will part with the money if there is total independent-type enginering done to create a REAL Pontiac? PMD learned the hard way that re-badging a Monaro didn't make a flying off the lot GTO. If we do not get a Firebird, we sure as heck better get a new GTO, if PMD is going to be the performance division again. Let's all keep a look out for information on these continuing debates.
(Check the artwork attached sent to us by a young fellow showing what he thinks the new Firebird would look like. I would vote to "tone down" the Pontiac smiling-face-split-grille a bit, but this is a good start.))


DETROIT -- The reborn Chevrolet Camaro, due in early 2009, will be a muscle car tailored to an era of expensive gasoline, Chevrolet's top marketer said today.

Speaking at a press event, Chevrolet General Manager Ed Peper said: "We will offer V-6 and V-8 engine variants. We think we'll be able to have really strong gas mileage, certainly on the V-6 model and the V-8, too."

General Motors uses cylinder deactivation, which it markets as Active Fuel Management, to boost mileage on its new crop of full-sized SUVs. Peper said that technology could be used on the Camaro.

"We may well have Active Fuel Management on the V-6, if that's what somebody wants," he said. "But remember, we produce Corvettes now that get over 400 hp and get 28 miles to the gallon."

Despite rising gasoline prices, the Camaro gives GM an entry into the growing muscle-car revival that includes cars such as Ford's Mustang-based Shelby GT500 and the Dodge Challenger, scheduled to reach showrooms in 2008 with a Hemi engine.

Peper identified the Mustang and Challenger as key competitors. GM has declined to reveal Camaro pricing, but Peper said the car is "going to be the best value in every segment where we can be."

Production in 2008

GM has big plans for the Camaro. CEO Rick Wagoner said today that the car will go into production in late 2008 and will go on sale in early 2009. The production Camaro will closely resemble the concept car unveiled in January at the Detroit auto show, he said.

Wagoner said the sports coupe will be available with a variety of engines and transmissions. He hinted that a convertible version might also be in the works.

"It will come in many shapes and sizes," Wagoner said.

The car will be engineered by GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia but built in North America, Wagoner said today at the Management Briefing Seminars in Traverse City, Mich.

GM will announce the car's production site later, Wagoner said. He made no comment on the potential for a Pontiac Firebird version of the car.

Before GM killed both cars in 2002, the Firebird was a sibling vehicle of the old Camaro. But giving Pontiac a new Firebird appears to be a subject of debate within GM.

John Larson, GM's general manager of Pontiac-Buick-GMC, says he intends to push for a Chevrolet Camaro-type product for Pontiac, possibly to replace the GTO. Pontiac will kill the GTO at the end of this model year. But company insiders have said Pontiac will not get a Firebird.

Independent rear suspension

Wagoner did not offer many technical details, but he did say the new Camaro would have an independent rear suspension system to improve handling. That is a feature that Mustang fans clamored for but did not get.

High-performance variants of the Camaro will likely be powered by a version of GM's classic small block V-8 engine -- such as the one used in the outgoing GTO, which developed 400 hp.

The 2009 Camaro will share some styling cues with the 1969 model, but GM does not view it as a retro car, Wagoner said. The goal of the new car's styling was to appeal to those who like the '69 model, along with younger buyers, he said.

Since showing the concept version of the Camaro at the Detroit auto show, GM has been flooded with requests to build the car and has been offered deposits by enthusiasts.

It took GM about eight months to make a business case for the Camaro. Wagoner said today that he agreed with GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz's assessment that the company could sell 100,000 Camaros a year. Ford Motor Co. sold 100,995 Mustangs through July of this year.

GM was widely expected to approve the car for production. In April, a Detroit area GM dealer even started advertising the car for sale.

[bencar]

It looks like it ate too much, and stole most of it's front end styling from the concept Camaro. The car just doesn't make me say, yeah, this is what the Firebird would have become, if it hadn't been discontinued.

[Larry]

It seems that quite a bit of comment was stirred up recently when a "tease" GTO photo was posted at GM Inside News.
While not a Firebird/Trans Am, it is an interesting "study" on new car/retro.
I don't know the entire story behind the "why", but the comments ranged everything from "Where do I sign?" To "Why the Oldsmobile taillights?".
Regardless of what happens to the GTO (returns or not), or if there is a Firebird rebirth, there appears to be a vast market to tap among Pontiac lovers if only a performance car would return... Firebird or GTO.
Just who do we tell how much we are interested in one (or both)?
(Note how the reflection of the cover doesn't match the cover on the car. Pretty obvious airbruch job, darn good one though!)

[bencar]

It still looks bloated to me, on top of what others may have found wrong with the Concept Car, and if I could even afford one, I would NOT be interested in one that looked anything like that artist's rendition. G.M. just doesn't seem to get it, instead, they seem hell bent on trying to make any reintroduction of an old model nameplate, look the brain child of like some drug crazed designer, versus a legitimate evolution of the Model, had it stayed in production.

[Larry]

You said the magic words "had it stayed in production". That is the design thinking process that must not be covered in Automotive Design class.
Oddly, Ford seemed to have realized this concept. If a 1964-1/2 Mustang was parked next to a 2004 Mustang, you would say "Yeah, I can see how it got from there to here". Which raises the question, why then did they take a giant step backwards with the retro-2005 model? Why did they break the heritage line by going backwards, and where do they go from there?
This is a very difficult question for GM/PMD concerning any new "old" car-- or is it old "new" car?
I hate to be the one to throw a bucket of cold water on the whole idea, but perhaps it would be wise for PMD to scrap the entire retro process and just design a hell of a good, high performance, rear-wheel drive, V-8 car-- that is all Pontiac, not corporate-- and go from there.
They say you can never go home again. Well, some have successfully, but now they are faced with the question of how to get back (eventually) to where they really belong.

[bencar]

I'd say that judging from the way the 05 Mustangs flew off the lot, that Ford hit the ball out of the Park, versus G.M., who can't even seem to hit the ball. Maybe you can't go home, but then again, maybe you can do so good a job of making one feel at home, that they're happy with your new rendition of the place. Ford got it right, G.M., no way.

[Larry]

Hard to argue with that logic. The numbers (sales numbers, that is) tell the truth. Still I wonder where Ford will go from here with a "newer" Mustang. Perhaps they will really surprise everyone.
I sure would not want to be in GM's shoes about now. Nothing has seemed to have hit a chord, no mater what they do. And, they are so far behind that by the time they "get on line", what was new is now old. To is too bad when you get so big that moving is like a battleship trying to turn around in a small harbor. Either get smaller and more maneuverable (ie: market responsive) or redesign your rudder (have you seen the new "pods" on ships today?). Big can still move, but not using old ways.
It should be interesting!

[stucky2947]

It seems to me that each of the BIG THREE are going back to the old school style. Ford with the '06 Mustang and the styling of the PT cruiser and the Prowler, and don't forget Chevy's HHR. Personally, I like the styling of the 50's / 60's cars, but a completely new body style wouldn't be bad either.

[bencar]

A new body style that doesn't try to be so 'in-your-face' might just do the trick for G.M. at least. Funny, at one time aerodynamic sold, now they're trying to sell rolling bricks, or angular modern art, and it seems not too many people want either one.

[bencar]

Too bad G.M. also can't some other things straight. If you build something that looks good, is honest to its roots, and then price it right, gee, you'll actually sell a lot of them, ala the new Mustang.

I think you're right in saying that the current management crowd at G.M., is living in the 50's, when-'What is good for G.M., is good for the country'-ruled G.M.'s decision making processes for their product.

[bencar]

Um, for now, it would appear we are our own 'Spell Check.' Let the typos rule

[bencar]

Uh, I own a 1960 Plymouth Savoy with a Pushbutton controlled Transmission. Kind like it better than those column shifts that could jump into gear all by themselves.

Question-How do I corral our fellow Pontiac enthusiasts I know they're out there somewhere, just don't have enough time to track them all down.

[bencar]

No joke, go to http://bencar.freeyellow.com/benscarpage.html, and you'll see my Plymouth.

In regards to the Web Link, I will get that up, once I finally get through the 'Car Show' season, and have some time to work on that. In the meantime, all my outgoing E-Mails have a Link to this site embedded in them.

[Larry]

Perhaps we are flattering ourselves, but let's all pretend that the powers to be are reading what our Pontiac-loving members have to say. We are in fact the best market study group there is... at we are free.
If PMD listens to what our hobbyists have to say (OK, filter out a bit of the emotion), they will have all the answers they need.
Let's keep talking and perhaps we will be rewarded.

[bencar]

I certainly hope that the Brass at G.M. is snooping around, and reading what we have to say about their intended product releases.

The way I figure it, even if I can't afford ANY new car out there anymore , I do talk to those who can afford the mortgage needed to buy one, and some of those folks agree with my opinions on what is desirable, and what constitutes a-Wouldn't take one for free-offering. So, read on G.M. Brass, read on.