Smoke Signals?

[RWPgarage]

I did send my letter to both Keefe and Desrochers. No response from either. At the very least, I expected a letter of denial of all my concerns.

The only course of action I can think of at this point is to forward the letter to Chapter presidents, let them discuss it, and decide what they want to do.

I don't want to be a trouble maker, but ignoring any of us in POCI is just plain rude, and the membership needs to know this is going on. It's our Club, not the BOD's, and we have a right to know what is going on with our Club...and our money.

I have just sent the letter to each of them again, this time with a "read receipt" requested.

Any comments? What would you suggest as my next step?

[lightning]

Your best "next step" is to use this forum.

POCI leaders and members read these forums. Making your concerns known here will filter back to many good POCI people. The President, would like nothing better than to end his almost "President for Life" status. POCI did have term limits?

As long as we all stay civil and professional in our approach, the good people of POCI can be informed about their organization.

[lightning]

To Pontiac Purest,

Have you ever noticed the Aztec with the rear spoiler? While behind the wheel, looking at the rear mirror, all you saw was the rear spoiler. I do not know who thought that one out, but hopefully that style design team is working for a different auto company now.

I believe, if Pontiac markets it right, the G8 will blow away the competition. Tight body design ( Holden assembly), Corvette engine, great looks and afforadable pricing. How does 270 horses sound in a Pontiac ?

[Larry]

Amen to that!
I second the motion to move on and enjoy those things that bring fun and enjoyment. Life is way too short to get bogged down for too long in things that aren't going to change.
There are lots of no-goodnicks out there, we'll never change (muchless fix) them, but we can enjoy ourselves with our families, friends, cars, shootin' irons, etc. Heck, some day PMD may even become fun again with its offerings. But if not, hey, that's why we have our older Pontiacs.
All in favor of having fun, stand up and be counted!
Larry

[RWPgarage]

Received a reply from Bob Desrochers last Friday. It said he has been very busy, but that he intended to answer my questions soon.

Will give him until this weekend.

[50scars]

Remember back in the OLD DAYS, when most of us had dark hair (or hair period) When the new models came out, they had a full line--2 and 4 door sedans, 2 and 4 door hardtops, convertibles, wagons, frequently 2 and 4 doors of them, too. Several engines to choose from. Several transmission to choose from. There wa even a period of time when there were several different sizes with the full line of styles and engines to choose from. I wonder what happened? I have NEVER been able to figure out what possesses GM to bring out a new model with the anemic base engine, and the mundane body styles first. After they have trashed the enthusiast market with lackluster products, they then send out the engine they should have put between the springtowers right off the bat.
Fiero is a great example--they had that V-6 available--it might have actually made the car profitable, had they not waited for a few years of selling those self-igniting 4s. I do not know what IDIOT decided to put the 4 in the Solstice, instead of the G-6s engine. Must have been the same idiot who failed to give the car enough trunk room to carry a case of beer if you take a pal along who will pay for it. Ford's T'bird remake at least had room in the trunk for a couple sets of clubs.
By the time you have the financial substance to swing a car with as limited utility as a Solstice, you are not interested in playing SCCA games, you want to go places on nice days, and do things like golf, and weekend trips with a sweetie, who will bring more than a small purse.

[cjsFiero85]

I just read a post that wasn't specifically about Fieros, but as an example discussed Fieros with "self-igniting" 4 cylinder engines. Please don't, especially in this forum intended to promote Pontiacs, publish information that is harmful and incorrect about any of our vehicles. I am so tired of having to defend the 2.5L engine in my Fiero. Not all 4 cylinders caught fire. In fact, considering the quantity of Fieros, as well as other cars that are equipped with this engine, very few caught fire.

I'm not going to deny that there were some engine fires, but most of the 4 cylinder Fieros have provided long term reliable service. Mine has over 100,000 miles and has never failed to start and it sure as hell hasn't caught on fire. I know of other 4 cylinder Fieros that have traveled over 200,000 miles without a problem. How many other cars, Pontiac or otherwise can claim the same durability? How many people have Pontiacs that they would even drive that many miles?

Fieros and 4 cylinders may not be exciting to you, but we are all Pontiac fans, and 4 cylinder Fieros are Pontiacs. Why in the world would any Pontiac fan consider denigrating another Pontiac on a web site dedicated to promoting Pontiacs?

Please be considerate and thoughtful of the other members when posting information here. And please make sure the information that you are posting is accurate.

[Larry]

Ditto!
It is unfortunate that stereotypes develop (with cars as well as with people). Usually they are based on something or someone in a very limited sense, but develop their own legs.
We could go around referring to some of the '60s Pontiacs with Slim Jim transmissions as "those Pontiacs with self-exploding transmissions" too I guess.
I think this was just an example of frustration toward the marketing and engineering we have seen in the past.... and present too. But, still everyone should be careful.
Heck, I was an F-100 Flying Crew Chief in the USAF and if I had worried about all the planes that augured in during the first few years, I would never have set foot into one.... much less taken off! There are numerous examples of engineering problems everywhere.... the main thing is that they get identified and corrected, as was with the Fiero.
The Fiero story is one of a great concept that somehow lost momentum and by the time it was everything it should have been, had the plug pulled. We should be referring to the GM "self-igniting" good ideas.
Peace!
Larry

[super]

The iron duke 2.5 is truely a great engine. I have ran them for years and had nothing but great luck with them. Although not an extremely powerful engine, they actually ran quite well in the light Fieros. Add a few super duty parts to the Fiero 2.5 and watch out!! Great performer.

I had a rebuilt 2.5 I ran several years ago. I had it in a car with a locking converter. At 65 to 70m.p.h., it would get 40 miles per gallon. Hard to beat even with todays technology.

The Fiero was far better designed than given credit for. We are a "Pontiac club" and should show an appreciation of everyones cars. Can't knock it if you haven't owned or driven a Fiero. Very great car!!!

Jeff

[Larry]

Bruce: Sir supreme block decker and valve lapper.

How's about we jump to the "Pontiac Technical News" with the engine and technical stuff. This started out as just "general" hobby-type news. If anyone wants, just say "Hey, guys meet me over here..."

It would be cool to see more about this 4-cyl. T1000. I think there is more than just doin' what every one else does. I have some Super Duty info on the Iron Duke; I'll have to dig it out and share it.

Thanks,
Larry

[super]

I'll jump over to the technical section to check out the info on the 4-cylinder Ponchos. My good friend Selden still has some NOS iron duke super duty parts.

Speaking of a T-1000, Selden's son, Ben Ruwwe, is making a sleeper out of one of these. I will discuss in the tech section.

I'll let you guys get back to the previous subject. Just wanted to make comment in reference to the iron duke. Good engine!!

Thanks,
Jeff

[50scars]

I did own a 4 cyl Fiero--it burned up twice. The first time was just a little engine bay fire that took out just some of the body. The car was less than a month old. The second time happened before it was 6 months old, and it burned to the ground. This was a brand new car. My wife wanted it because it was so cute. A couple guys in my chapter have had them at various times, mainly because they appeared to be in good shape, and the price was right. They devoured parts--factory parts, not junkyard or Autozone aftermarket parts. The problem was not the engine--it was the wiring harness, and body hardware. I do not recall ever adjusting a Fiero for collision damage--always fire starting in the engine compartment. The problem with the Fiero 4 cylinder was that the car looked sporty, but was lithargic. When they installed the 6, it became a very nice little car. What they should do is sell the enthusiast car first, to the people who will pay top dollar, then come up with the milder cheaper version to milk the money from those who are a little tighter fisted, but still want the look. The Fiero was not the first time they did that--recall the X-car--Citation, Phoenix, Buick and Olds had a version, too. True, it was designed and marketed as an economy car, so the small engine was correct---however, when they started putting the 6 they already had into them, gas mileage improved.
The first year for Fiero, they sold 120,000; the next year half that; the next year, half of that again; and the last year, they sold 25,000. I don't know how many of the buyers of 6s in the last 2 years would have bought a 4 if that was all that was available, but half of the last 2 years cars were 6s--at a premium of about 50% above the price of the 4.
I don't recall the exact year but sometime in the late 70s-early 80s, a survey was run of POCI members and what they had for moderns. The numbers were great--I don't recall the exact numbers, but more than half had current or quite late model Pontiacs as daily drivers, among the more than 3/4 had GM products of some kind. We ran another survey about 2000. You never heard a peep about that survey. It was embarrasing--not even half of us had any modern GM products at all. Again I don't recall the numbers, but less than 1/4 of us had Pontiac or GMC branded moderns. Now if you happen to be into Studebakers or Packards, then not having anyone using the brand as regular transport is understandable; but if you are still making the brand, and the nuts for your brand won't buy your modern product, that constitutes a major problem.
While it is wondeful that you love and defend your car above all else, you have to be honest about it. I have a Jaguar XK-120, and a Sunbeam Alpine. "All of the parts falling off this car is of the finest British workmanship" is what my bumper sticker says. You don't see vintage British sports cars out for a tour without a couple moderns towing trailers in the group, for a reason--they are really good at making you walk. They were good at it when new, too. Name a current British car, other than Rolls Royce or Jaguar that is still sold in the USA. Jaguar is owned by Ford, and they don't use Lucas electric systems or Smiths components now. You don't buy a Rolls for dependable transport--it is to show that you can afford it, and you do have other things to use when it is in the shop.
My Pontiac was at the tail end of being modern when it was built, but they made a new body a couple years later, with pretty much the same chassis and ran it through 54. I've heard legends about how the death of someone kept Pontiac from getting its modern V-8 a couple years before it did, but you only have to look at the engine compartment of a 53 or 54 to think that idea is kind of far fetched. Those of us who have put V-8s where a straight 8 came from, understand that when they designed it, a factory installed V-8 wasn't in the cards.
At least they still build things they call Pontiacs. I know a couple guys with new GTOs. They say that they are one heck of a great car. Jim Wangers says that the new GTO is a worthy successor to the original one. Was the styling lackluster? Is that why they had a hard time selling them? I don't know. I didn't buy one. I didn't buy an original one, either. Using my thumb rule for correcting today's prices for what the politicians have done to the dollar, the new GTO sold for less than the originals did. I quit paying attention to the G-6 retractable hardtop. They showed it 2 years running at the Chicago Auto Show. After the second summer of not being available, I quit bugging my dealer about it.
Oldsmobile had the absolute runaway best selling model for several years--the Cutlass--the whole division is gone now. Ford had 4 cars that were top sellers in their class as little as 5 years ago, including one that was the absolute top selling model 10 years ago. They just mortgaged everything they have in an attempt to survive.
Like my original question said--WHAT HAPPENED?

[cjsFiero85]

...what member "50s Cars" is implying. I am sure that there were people with Fieros that experienced fires. I am sure that there were Fiero owners that had problems with their cars. However, please do not paint all Fieros produced over a four year span with the same broad brush. This is a battle that Fiero owners have been battling for twenty years.

My experience as a Fiero owner has been nothing but positive. I am the original owner of my 1985 Fiero Sport Coupe. I have driven it over 104,000 miles. In that time, in addition to regular maintenance (belts, hoses, filters, battery, plugs, plug wires, brakes, tires and shocks) I have replaced the clutch, one oxygen sensor, one throttle position sensor and approximately five light bulbs. It still has the original exhaust system. I keep accurate records of the maintenance on all of my cars. Of the seven cars that I have owned over the past 22 years, my Fiero has been the most reliable inexpensive car I have owned; and nothing has ever "fallen off" of my Fiero.

As for economy, after 22 years, my Fiero can still achieve over 40 mpg on the highway and regularly returns mileage in the low to mid 30's around town.

The 4 cylinder cars are not quick or fast, but a car doesn't have to be fast to be fun to drive, and the Fiero is fun to drive. If you've never owned a Fiero, you wouldn't understand the alure of this car.


The point that I'm trying to make here is that there are individual cars within a model line that will have problems and those that won't. No one should condemn the entire production of a model do to a (small) percentage that have had problems.

[Larry]

50scars sure speaks from a wealth of experience, so is certainly entitled to his opinions... he's earned his stripes so to speak.

His remarks about the auto industry and trends are "spot on". I have an opinion... call it a premonition... when it comes to Pontiac. I know some do not want to hear it, but it goes like this:

Have you seen the Chev products? A retro Camaro coming out, a spiffy looking retro '50s pickup truck, a Corvette, a retro '50s HHR wagon, an Impala that is looking quite sharp (for a small car that is), a Cobalt for the tuner guys, and a full line of trucks including Suburbans and Avalanche, and now they even have a Monte Carlo with a 303 hp V8.

Have you seen the Saturn line-up? They have the Sky, which is our Solstice, but with even more horsepower and styling that most like better than the Solstice (I don't, but many do). The Aura is a sharp mid-size car, and generally they have the entire small car and SUV line filled. Now, unlike days gone by when Saturn was a bit of a joke, today it has some darn nice cars.

Have you seen the Buicks lately? Well, they don't have a lot, but the Lucerne is a really sharp looking V8 car complete with portholes from the '40s-'50s!, and the Lucerne is an atractive V6 car for the luxury seekers. Buick even has three SUVs for those who care.

Now what about the GMCs? While this brand only fills the SUV and truck market, it does a hell of a good.... and very attractive.... job at it.

We won't discuss Cadillac much as it fits an entirely different niche, and as such I do not believe its offerings affect any of the other brands, other than the fact that price-wise it isn't too difficult for a Buick candidate to step up to a Caddy today... heck, even a Cadillac CTX is the same price as a GP! And, if you have the bucks for a sports car don't go to M-Benz... buy American! Who wouldn't want an XLR?!

Now what about Pontiac? Just where the heck are they supposed to fit in all of this? Except for a G6 which isn't selling anything like the Grand Am it replaced, there is nothing unique to Pontiac any longer. The Bonnevile is gone, the GTO fell on its nose (sales-wise), the Aztek was a disaster, the GP is on about its umpteenth year of the same thing, the only performance image car they had got dropped, and it looks like there won't be a retro Firebird built alongside the Camaro.... Take away the old brand loyality and there isn't much potential left. I have heard for years that if PMD did not supply the rental car market so heavily, they would have been out of business years ago. True or false, I do not know.

Will PMD simply become a way to bring Holden production to the US? Let's see how the G8 does. But why would a large company like GM who seemingly has all the bases covered with other brands keep Pontiac around for much longer? All the talk a few months ago about rededicating to the "performance division" again has only yielded the Holden G8, and GXP versions of the G6 and GP. I'm wondering if this is all too little, too late. Anybody hear anything lately about the new GTO supposed to come?

OK, back to my premonition. It is more of a question. Without a complete redirection, redefinition, remake of nearly the entire Pontiac line, where will Pontiac be in the next couple of years? Will it be economically reasonable to have this division much longer what with all the corporate sharing going on anyway? Remember, GM is in this business to make money, and will do whatever it takes.

Will Pontiac be left as only "Mr. In Between"? Any thoughts here?

[cjsFiero85]

Please don't misunderstand my earlier comments. It was not my intention to question anybody's knowledge, experience or integrity. I'm just asking that all Fieros ever built, not be branded as inferior products because some Fieros had problems.

I'll give you an example. My daily driver is a 2003 Jeep Liberty Renegade. When I picked it up at the dealer the first day I owned it, a solenoid failed preventing the transmission from shifting out of first gear. Was I upset? You bet I was. Do I go around stating that Jeep Liberties are crap? No. Because they aren't. I haven't run into a single other Jeep Liberty owner who experienced the same problem. There are probably other owners who experienced the same problem, but the percentage is small enough that I've never encounted another one. Now I know that Fiero engine fires are far more serious than a transmission that won't shift; but the point is that the vast majority of Fieros never had fires; have provided reliable economical service; and are good cars with good engines. I can't believe the number of times I've sat a car shows and heard spectators look at my Fiero and discuss the fact that Fieros are known for having engine fires. It's just not the case with most Fieros. I'm only trying, twenty years later, to stop this notion that we Fiero owners are driving cars that could burst into flames at any given moment.

I'm sorry for perpetuating this posting, but this is incredibly frustrating for me.