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'61-'62 Tempest / Le Mans with a 215ci V8
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Larry_Rarus



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Lincoln, RI



PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: '61-'62 Tempest / Le Mans with a 215ci V8 Reply with quote

I have owned a 4-cyl '62 LeMans for a number of years. I participate in this forum as well as others. All of the discussion regarding 61-62 Tempests revolves around either the 1-bbl or 4-bbl four banger (of course the 326 Pontiac was available in '63). That's absolutely fine. However, it did make me curious. Does anyone out there have, or know of, a 215ci V8 '62. I've never seen one in real life or even pictures for that matter.
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Larry
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Tempest V-8 Reply with quote

You must have STP or something, because I was wondering about that myself the other day. I was talking to someone and the subject of the all aluminum V-8 Buick engine from the very early '60s came up. We soon got to wondering if Pontiac used it too.

A quick check of John Gunnell's "Standard Catalog of Pontiac" shows for 1962 under Tempest engines "[Base V-8]: Overhead valves, cast-iron block. Displacement:215 cid. Bore & stroke: 3.50 x 2.80 in 215.5 cid. Compression ratio: 10.25:1. Brake horsepower: 185 at 4800 rpm. Hydraulic valve lifters. carburetor: Rochester four-barrel." Wow! A 4-bbl.

A little further checking shows that the Buick engine was in fact offered in 1962, and was also 215 cid, but a cast aluminum block as I remembered. I seem to remember that the heads were still cast iron. It was only 8.8:1 and 155 hp. It was only a 2-bbl.

By 1963, Buick had switched to a cast iron V-6.... they must not have been able to keep enough helicoils in stock for all the striped out bolts that probably resulted from the aluminum block '62s.

In 1962 Oldsmobile's F-85 also used the aluminum block 215 cid engine, but I do not know if it was the exact same one as Buick had (one would assume it was). Interestingly, they also offered a turbo-charged, fuel-injected version in the Jetstar which pumped out 215 horsepower at 4800 rpm. Olds kept this engine for 1963 also, but it was gone for 1964 when everyone up-sized their compact line.

I have only seen two of these engines... and they were Buickand Oldsmobile-- never a Pontiac!!

I remember a 1962 Buick Special with the aluminum V-8 on a car lot in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin in the late-'60s. Even the salesman was joking about stripping bolts. I also remember a 1962 or '63 Oldsmobile F-85 in a juck yard in Springfield, Ohio while I was a guest of Uncle Sam at Wright-Patterson AFB. It even had the turbo-charger! I thought how neat that would be to have in a small street rod.

Let's start the hunt for a Pontiac 215!!
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Larry_Rarus



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Lincoln, RI



PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did see and hear a '62 Buick Special with the 215 V8. I believe the Special was Buick's sister to the Tempest, although the Special used a conventional drive train. Anyhow, this car coincidentally was the same color combo as my Le Mans (blue with a white roof). It sounded really sweet and mellow. I chatted briefly with the owner before he drove away. He said the car wasn't particularly fast but it was still fun to drive. That car is located in Rhode Island as well. So.....that leaves us with no reported 215-V8 Tempests for the moment. I hope someone out there has seen one.

I've read about guys swapping out the front under-carriage to install a real Pontiac V8 in the 61s and 62s. I wonder if that'd be necessary to retrofit one of the small 215s under the hood. Real Pontiac horsepower and torque going to the stock 62 Le Mans transaxle would lead to very frightening handling characteristics in my opinion. Whereas a small 215 would provide the V8 sound and smoothness without too much weight, horsepower and torque. It would make a nice cruiser, rather than racer, that'd be much more suitable to the stock transaxle.
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Larry
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Tempest V-8 Reply with quote

I dug a bit deeper and found something interesting.

The 1962 Tempest V-8 215 I found in the "Standard Catalog of Pontiac" by John Gunnell is shown as the 4-bbl 185 hp engine.

In John's other book "Standard Catalog of V-8 Engines", he also shows the 215 in a 155 hp version that had a 2-bbl. I guess it pays to check more than one source.

We have been speaking about '62 models, but these same engines are shown for 1961 (withthe same discrepency between the two books as noted.)

But, even more interesting is that after each listing in the "Standard Catalog of V-8 Engines", for "Pontiac Tempest optional V-8" it says in parenthesises "(Built by Buick)". Wierd, huh?

So, Buick was pouring aluminum for their cars, and cast iron for Pontiac's.

Speaking about the V-8 and the transaxle concerning strength, the '63 Tempest sported a 326 and transaxle. I do not know if it was a beefed up unit, but suspect it wasn't much stronger, as many people replaced it with a standard third member and moved the transmission up front.

I would think that the little 215 in either aluminum or cast iron would be a cute, sweet sounding engine kind of like the little Ford 60 was/is.

I'm going to drop John a note and see if he can clear up this mystery.
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Larry_Rarus



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Lincoln, RI



PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew the 215 was of Buick design. In fact, if I understand it correctly, the engine design/molds were sold to Rover in the U.K. and remained in production (although certainly evolved) until a few years ago. They were used in Land Rovers. I didn't realize, however, that Pontiac's version was cast iron. I had assumed it was simply an aluminum Buick bolted into a Tempest.

When I ordered the build sheet for my '62 Le Mans from Pontiac Historic Services (they can go back to 1961, my particular car was manufactured on March 26, 1962), they supplied a ton of other production information. Here's what relates to the 215ci engine:

Code 91Z----Special Equipment Buick V8, 185HP, 215 displacement, 4-bbl, manual transmission, quantity built=90
Code 96Y----Export Buick V8, 185HP, 215 displacement, 4-bbl, automatic transmission, quantity built=103
Code 97Y----Special Equipment Buick V8, 185HP, 215 displacement, 4-bbl, automatic transmission, quantity built=813

That pretty much puts it into perspective. Only 90 were produced with stick shifts! Only a little more than 800 automatics were produced for domestic use. Compare that with approximately 115,000 4-bangers. It pretty much explains why we don't hear them discussed these days. I wonder if there's a lucky person out there with a 215 stick. Even more, I wonder if that person understands its rarity. Now if I can only find that barn it's hidden in............
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Larry
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Buick-Pontiac V-8 Reply with quote

Here's a little more corn-fusion to throw into the mix.

John Gunnell's V-8 book lists the 91Z engine code for 1962 as the 2-bbl. 155 hp version, and a 97Z as the 4-bbl. 185 hp one. This could drive a person to drinking!

Regardless, they all were rare and would be a magnificant find for some lucky Pontiac hobbyist today. I think "that barn" is only in our dreams.... or maybe there is a heaven, and that's it for some of us (if you're good... drat!)
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Graham



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 7


1937 2619 four door touring sedan

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting subject - i have noticed the 215 referenced in several books but thought they had been crossreferenced from older (wrong) literature and info, i always thought that they had never made it into production.

With under 900 produced i would of thought at least one stick shift would still be doing the rounds somewhere, thinking im unlikely to run across one in the UK though..

The Rover version of the Buick/Olds 215 does share similarities, though from memory i cannot recall which interchanges with which, if i can get hold of my mate who does like to tinker with these i will ask him.

Larry R, yup the good ol Landie had em, along with a lot of other from the British Leyland range also, and not 100% sure but until a few years back i think TVR used them also

Digging thru some pieces the other week i found this old press pic of the 62 Olds Jetfire with turbocharger



cheers

simon

http://www.pontiacuk.com/index.html
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Larry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject: Turbo 215 Reply with quote

That picture makes me wish even more that I had not only grabbed the turbo charged engine from the Olds in the Springfield, Ohio junk yard, but the entire car. It was a convertable too!

Still looking for someone to pop in with a story about their old Aunt Bertha who left the V-8 '61 Tempest sitting in her garage, and it is still there gathering dust.

Should be interesting with Simon's info and connections across the pond to learn more about the life of the 215 after American use.

Thanks,
Larry
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Larry_Rarus



Joined: 29 May 2006
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Location: Lincoln, RI



PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard from some folks around the country regarding this topic and have even uncovered one 215-automatic in use in Phoenix. Here's something from a gentleman in Phelps, NY: "All 215 engines were aluminum, with cast-in iron sleeves that were ribbed on the outside, so sleeves couldn't be replaced. Back "in the day", the engine had a reputation for overheating and warping stuff, mainly the heads. Mine cooled okay, and I've got my own theories about the problems-
1) A number of owners admitted they didn't use the correct coolant. Back then, you had to search out particular coolants intended for aluminum engines, to avoid excessive corrosion.
2) The idiot light for over-temp was almost useless. I got mine hot (boiled over a little) once, when I didn't realize I was slowly losing coolant from a heater hose leak. Afterward, I wondered why I hadn't seen the idiot light come on, so I replaced the sending unit. As is my habit, I put the new unit in a pan of water with a thermometer on the stove to check it. It wouldn't do anything! Then I looked up the spec on it- it's supposed to activate at 232`F! What good does that do anybody?! I wound up adding a small mechanical temerature guage under the dash."

A gentleman from Phoenix supplied the link to his car: http://www.southwestv8.com/pics/pontiac/sb_tempest/tempest.htm

A gentleman from Steelville, MO added this: "One of the reasons GM dropped the engine was 8 out of 10 blocks were scrap because of core shift. Millions of Range Rovers and Land Rover owners cant be wrong. You can use a later British version (yes, BMC bought the tooling) which was made until 2002 I think. They made 3.5,3.9,4.0 and 4.6 versions.
One problem with the older blocks can be the corrosion from anti freeze sitting in the block to long.
Im building a 3.5 V8 for a Group 44 replica Triumph TR-7 now (the factory made a V8 version of the TR7 called a TR8) the bare block weighs 75 lbs, and is a real neat engine. A Buick 350 HEI unit drops right in and they do have a nice aftermarket for it also.
They had two versions in the beginning : The Olds which used I think 4 headbolts/cylinder and the Buick had 5. Olds even offered a Turbo 215 in 62-63 called the Jetfire."
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Larry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Tempest V-8 Reply with quote

The following is what I received from John Gunnell about the tempest 215:

"The two-barrel V-8 was a $216 option (dealer cost $160). According to a supplement that Motor Life put out on this car in October 1960, it was an all-aluminum V-8. It did have a 215 cubic inch displacement and it weighed 350 pounds. It was 200 pounds lighter than the 4-cylinder. It produced the same 150 hp as the hotter version of the four. The V-8 was quieter than the four and gave 50/50 weight distribution. It is my understanding, but I have no current documentation, that this engine was the same used by Buick and Olds. Ward's Automotive Yearbook incdicates that lass than 1 percent of production had the V-8."

It seems like the original information I found in the "Standard Catalog of Pontiac" (by John) is now not correct as all seem to be jumping on the all aluminum band wagon. That would make the most sense rather than some aluminum, and some cast iron.

No matter how you slice it, it is a rare animal.
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Ropeshaft



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10


1963 Lemans

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a little experience with the 215s. We had a Pontiac/Buick dealership when I was growing up and while I don't remember having a Tempest with a 215, I remember my mother's car in 63 was a Buick Special with that engine. It was a very quick car and the engine was smooth.

I have known of a 61 Tempest 4-door with a 215 V8 in a WI salvage yard for many years. My friend Greg Walters decided he wanted it to put into a 61 wagon he was building. In March of 2006 (in the snow) Greg and I pulled that engine. Turns out the block was pretty much junk but the real find were the parts unique to Pontiac on the 215. Greg had a good block from Buick and now had what he needed to build a true Pontiac 215.

Like many of us do, Greg changed his mind on the wagon and sold it to a guy in MI who will be putting a 421 conventional drivetrain in it. I think Greg still has the 215 engine since that was not part of the wagon sale.

About 5 years ago, I bought a 61 Buick Skylark with a 215 from the car corral at a swap meet. It was a beauty and I got it for $1,800. My plan was to use it as a daily driver. I did that for about a year when a custodian at our local high school begged me to sell it to him. I did and I have regretted it ever since. It was a great running good looking daily driver and I should have kept it. Not the first time I messed up and won't be the last I'm sure.

I'll try to attach a picture of our WI winter engine pull and one of my Skylark.
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Larry
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: 215 V-8s Reply with quote

What a good looking little Buick! I guess the word "little" is relative though as that size is about what a so-called "full-size" car is today.

"Neither rain, nor snow, nor dark of night... can keep a car nut from pulling parts!" I remember doing an engine change on a '66 390 Fairlane GT in a parking lot during an Ohio snow storm while in the Air Force.

The early Tempest lovers must be laughing all the way to the gas pumps today! I forecast a real jump in 4- and 6-cylinder collectables in the future. Not modern stuff, but the unique cars like the Tempests and all OHC-6s; also things like the 215 "mini" eight.

Anyone ever try adapting a 4-6-8 Cadillac system to a 455 GTO? Might be worth looking into.
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gilby



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 27


1978 TransAm

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

check out this old ad for 1962. it refers to a 190 h.p. alum v-8. I don't know if that is the same as the one you guys are talking about, but thought you'd find it interesting. I am looking at a 62 with a 4 banger as another project and like the lines of this year! Very Happy
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gilby



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 27


1978 TransAm

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duh! forgot the attachment!
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Larry_Rarus



Joined: 29 May 2006
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Location: Lincoln, RI



PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the engine but I didn't realize it was advertised at 190HP. I've always heard 185.
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